MAXIMUMROCKNROLL INTERVIEW
Originally published in 1989

I've often heard that Americans are less politically aware than people in other countries. Do you think this is true?
AMY: I think the reason that people are more politically aware in other countries is because it's much easier for them to become politically aware. I saw an entirely different kind of TV when I was in England; things that were shown about their government that would never have come across to the masses in America.
AL: The rich control everything in America; they don't want anyone outside to realize there's a huge population of people here that are really poor, starving to death, and they do their best to bury that, they want to export "Dynasty".
VIC: Look at the farmers, who supposedly built this country, you'll see they're living below poverty level; that's mid-America, that's supposed to be where "Dallas" and "Dynasty" take place.
AMY: People are starving in Third World countries to harvest grain to feed cattle, to feed the American middle class. The people are victimes here too 'cause their meals are oriented around meat and McDonald's, and it's been so pounded into them, they're slaves to provide meat for their families. They spend money on "necessities" because it's been pounded into them, and they become malnourished. Eating meat has nothing to do with nutrition.
AL: People have it easier in America. Shit, where I come from, it's cold, very, very cold, and every year hundreds of homeless (American) Indians freeze to death because they have nothing. They can't get hired 'cause they're Indian, they can't work in the reservations 'cause there's no work there unlses they want to sell fucking souvenirs, but no one goes up there anyway. So they come down to the cities and they freeze to death, that's what happens in America. They're part of a giant population of people who are dying while the rich perpetuate a myth that says "This is 'Dynasty'."
VIC: This is a consumer societ, it is built on "Buy or Die" and what the media exports to the world is what they want them to buy.
AL: They want to sell a slice of American with every Chevrolet, and there's no slice of America anymore. 10% of the population owns America and that leaves 90% that is dying, the middle class is disappearing, it's either uppoer class or lower-middle class, or poor, which is poverty.
AMY: And the American way is to make the gap between the classes as wide as possible.
AL: So you have an entire mass of people that are slaves to consumerism: The way they sell is through, "Hey, you can get a better life, buy this."
VIC: They have no choice becasue they're not even aware of it.
AL: They think, "Oh, there must be something wrong with me because I can't buy a VCR, and I can't get the house with two cars and Spot in the driveway." So they spend more than they ever have, and wind up deeper in the hole, and the bank gets their money. Basically what the people in foreign countries see is what we see, and they tell us, "Well, you've got these privilages, you've got it made." And we go into our shitty apartments and we see "Dynasty" too, and we're like, "Where is it, it must be here somewhere?"
VIC: Soon it's gonna fail, same thing that happened to Rome. The middle class are the ones who pay the taxes 'cause the poor don't make enough money and the rich find loopholes. That's one of the reasons that Rome fell - the middle class was taxed out of existence, and it became a society of rich and poor.
AL: And the rich export this idea to other countries, this consumerism. Basically they're just creating more markets to sell their useless garbage. Coca-Cola's in every country in the world now.
VIC: It's like in the Soviet Union, they finally realized, "Hey, the US is doing pretty good with this consumerism thing, let's get it into this country, keep our population quiet and happy." Like in Rome, they have the poor bread and circus, basically welfare and entertainmetn, let's throw a few christians to the lions to keep the populace happy. It's the same shit here with TV.
AL: I was just talking with Vinny from A.P.P.L.E. and he put it great, he said the problem with Marxist/Leninist philosophy is that they said eventually the poor are gonna say, "Hey, we can't take this anymore," or "We can't live like this anymore." And then they'll overthrow the government. Well, America's a little bit smarter than that. They're not gonna push them to the point where they're gonna do it, they're gonna throw them little tidbits. "Yo, here's some Medicaid, here's some welfare programs,' etc. and they pacify the people for a generation and then in the next one they slowly start to take it away. They never give them solutions, they just give them appeasements. Once those are gone, or the people start settling down, then they start pulling them back, it's a big cycle. As long as they're thrown the continual thought of the American dream, when they're down to their last thread of sanity left, they give 'em basic charity. This will continue until new generations are educated into not buying it. That's what alternative culture is supposed to be all about, not buying into it.
AMY: Being involved in an alternative culture, a true one, is so important and it's intensely hard to do.
VIC: Especially when you go to the alternative culture and you realize that it's not really much of an alternative, just a different version of the same shit.
AL: Do you really think hardcore of the alternative music scene today is alternative? They buy into hardcore with their sneakers and their jock apparel and they're happy, they're part of something, they belong, but pretty soon they're left with nothing.
VIC: They'll find something else for you to buy into. Everything that I got into hardcore for in the firs place to get away from followed me, and is now there full force.

A lot of "anarchists" or peacepunks or alternative types seem to only hang around with their own kind - with those whose ideas exactly mirror their own. Do you think this is a problem?
VIC: There's people that you're gonna run into that may not hold your specific beliefs but that agree with you on a certain topic, and can help you achieve something to that end, and maybe you'd get exposed to things you wouldn't necessarily if you only associated with one type of person. Even people that have completely bullshit beliefs and disagree totally with what you have to say or the way you live your life can say something that may spark an idea and you may look at something in a different way. You can't close yourself out.
AMY: You can't change something or influence something unless you have a full understanding of it and if you limit yourself you won't understand what causes certain people to behave or think in a certain way. You have to have an understanding of their lifestyle or their surroundings or their beliefs. If we all just stick to our certain beliefs and shut out the rest of the world we'll become impotent and have no effect on the rest of the world. This isn't something for us to delve into our own purity or to surround oursleves with only politically pure people. You then become stagnant, not effective.

Why did you appear on the Revelation compilation "NYHC - The Way It Is" with YDL (a right-wing nationalist band)?
VIC: Because we didn't know they were gonna be on it. If the chance came around again, we wouldn't. At the time we were on it we were just starting out, it was a big step for us, we got our name around and we got a lot of letters and shit asking the same question. In a way it's good, it breaks up the monotony and keeps the LP from being completely one-sided.
AMY: It gives people a chance to know there are other options out there, that there's other types of people and other ideas. Maybe they listened to the song, read the lyrics and thought about it.
AL: I wasn't in the band when that compilation came out. I would never appear on a record with any nationalists.

Have you ever gotten into a debate with someone with a radically different ideology, skinheads for example?
VIC: Maybe I've gotten someone to consider something more, not necessarily a skinhead. I know a lot of skinheads that are totally cool and that I'd rather hang out with than a lot of peacepunks or anarcho types that are so uptight and so into their particular belief that they totally put you down if you don't subscribe to their bible.
AMY: We had skinheads at the Pyramid show telling us to go back to Russia. A lot of skinheads have such an identiy crisis, such as clinging to beliefs that you find it very difficult to discuss things with them.
AL: They have children's tempers where if you say the wrong thing, they're like ...
AMY: "No! No! You're wrong, Tom Metzger says ..." and I say, "Give me an unbiast opinion, tell me why I'm wrong." "Well, all history's been biased for all people." "So, what you're saying is biased according to twhat you read and I'm biased according to what I've read so let's get down to human nature," and that will totally throw them off track because they've no longer got anything to cling to.
VIC: Most people are just looking for somethigng they can identify with and say, "Wow, that's me, I'm someone."
AL: Yeah, something bigger than themselves to believe in because they don't believe in themselves.
VIC: Like religion, nationality, whatever. Everyone's looking for security and if you can find a large group of people that can think fo ryou,t here's your instant identity.

Are any of you pacifists? (Dead silence.)
AMY: Well, there's your answer.
JOHN JOHN: I'm not a pacifist, but I'm not a violent person either. I'm not gonna go stomp someone just 'cause I don't like them.

What about violence at shows? How do you handle it?
VIC: When there's violence at our shows it's quickly quelled, I mean, I'll stop playing if I see a fight 'cause I don't want to contribute to it in any way. It gets out of hand a lot of times 'cause the music's too much, it's too hot in the club, so far there's been very little incidence of that. The occasional asshole is put out of commission quickly enough.
AL: I make it a point before I start any show to comment on violent dancing, 'cause when I go to shows I don't dance, I still enjoy the music and sI still exert myself physically but I don't dance. I don't feel the need to "mosh", so I make a point to let everyone know at Nausea shows that if the dancing gets out of hand and the smallest people, man or woman, is having a hard time enjoying themselves then the music's gonna have to stop. A lot of these people need babysitters, they don't need to go out and go to a show, they just need people to follow them around and make sure they don't hurt anyone.
VIC: It's a drag when there's people who feel they can't enjoy themselves unless they're ruining other people's enjoyment, and I really don't want to play to these people.

I want to talk about the role of women in the so-called alternative scene ...
AMY: You promised me you wouldn't ask that, I don't think this is for me to answer.

But it's becoming increasingly rare for bands who have women members, even in bands that are political, or talk about equality.
AL: That's 'cause most of the bands we play with are sexist assholes anyway.
VIC: People are full of shit. Empty barrels make the most noise; we've found that the people who preach the most usually end up doing everything they preach against. I really wouldn't know how to answer other than that.
AMY: People say that they disregard their upbringing and their brainwashing of the outside social system but they don't, they bring these things right into the scene witht hem. Sexism brings out very defensive reactions in people because they don't want to admit or understand or see that they're doing it themselves. I'm not only talking about men who set the boundaries, I'm also talking about women who accept their roles and even in the alternative scene they're still accepting th eroles that they've been raised to assume.
VIC: How can you break free of something that you've had conditioned from birth? Simply by putting on a costume or whatever; this seems to me that what most people do, it's just a costume. It's really easy to put on your jacket.
AMY: But can you live it? It's meaningless unless you really believe it or understand it and many people haven't shed the chains that they've carried over into the alternative scene, so it's a common finding, it's bullshit ... I remember seeing a female drummer once and all the guys were like, "Oh, I love the way her tits bounce up and down," you know? 'Cause when a woman gets up there it's hard, I gotta think, "Oh, are they really listening to what I'm saying or are they into it for the energy I'm putting into it, or are they watching my chest or something?" Women are put into a position where they must prove their equivalence to kmen; equality is not accepted as a basic fact, you must break their stereotypes to be accepted. This deters women for many reasons, maybe they're insecure or maybe they don't feel they should be subjected to this sexism. Or some, sadly enough, feel this is acceptable and comply. I've had guys make lewd gestures at me and shit while I'm up there and I try to pass it over or put it down but it's something that I have to keep doing. I have to prove to people that it can be done, that women are equal and that it's an integral part of evolution that women are treated as full equals.